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lucille bluth's avatar

I'm so glad I discovered this substack! I am a female software engineer so I feel especially qualified to comment on the Damore Memo. Like you, I've had a long journey from woke to post-woke, but for me it actually began in part with the Damore Memo. I initially believed all the media takes and assumed he was some kind of alt-right loser who had said that women were biologically inferior to men. It was only after going through the shock and horror of discovering that one of my male work friends—a kind, decent, funny and intelligent man with a loving wife and an adorable baby—was not only a Damore sympathizer but a Trump voter! At first I felt sick just thinking about it but speaking honestly with him helped the first cracks start to form in my worldview. A few weeks later I went back and read the full memo and my experience was similar to yours - I totally agree with you here:

"It does not seem controversial or even negative to me to say that on average, most women just don’t get all that excited about machinery for machinery’s sake. I know LOTS of women who are brilliant and would make wonderful engineers, but you couldn’t pay them enough to do it—it just sounds painfully boring to them. They don’t feel any discrimination or exclusion about it—they’re just like, hmmmmm, pass. And that’s okay!"

This totally matches my experience. I have so many brilliant female friends who could not possibly have less interest in my field, and that includes STEM-inclined women in fields like medicine. Of course this is all anecdotal but I meet random dudes who think my job is the coolest thing ever ALL. THE. TIME! I am literally friends with a famous musician who thinks my job is cooler than I think his is, which is insane to me. I've met guys at bars and ended up hanging out with them later to give them coding lessons. I have never, not even ONCE, had this experience with another woman. Women nod politely when I tell them what I do for a living and then we move on with the conversation. Sometimes they tell me about that time they started a python course on Codeacademy but then gave up because it was boring.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has ever met both men and women can possibly think that men and women don't have, on average, different inclinations. I went to the Super Bowl once and the line for the men's room at half time was 30 minutes long while I waltzed right into the ladies. I mean, hello! How did we get to a place where we let ideology blind us to basic common sense observations about humanity?

Even more importantly, why do we jump to the conclusion that any acknowledgement of the differences between men and women is a value judgment? To me that impulse reveals more misogyny than the reverse because it implies that one set of interests, inclinations, career choices, etc is more desirable than the other, with the subtext being that whatever appeals to men is more valuable. Those careers do often pay better, but then why is the conversation always about how to force more women into fields they might not even want to be in, rather than about why nursing and teaching pay so poorly relative to their importance? Why do we willfully ignore the data on how countries with the most equitable material conditions for men and women end up with the least gender-balanced workforce, while countries with some of the least equitable conditions (e.g. India) are the polar opposite?

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NickS (WA)'s avatar

re-reading the piece I am struck by this paragraph, which illustrates some of the challenges of this conversation.

"The initial goal was to eliminate barriers to entry and success, to break down stereotypes about engineers and make sure girls knew it was an option for them. Damore (and I) took it a step further and said, how can we rethink the field itself to make it even more attractive to women while also increasing the impact of a company’s workforce? The truth is, after decades of fighting sexism, it’s possible we actually made progress! It’s possible that discrimination is not the dominant factor in the remaining disparities. That leaves us to find other creative ways to improve the field, but it also challenges us to answer “what does ‘good enough’ look like?” If the answer is 50/50, we will have to engage in some massive social engineering at all ages. ..."

I think all of those are reasonable questions, and ones that can absolutely be asked in good faith. But the tricky thing is figuring out what should the burden of proof be for a statement like, "It’s possible that discrimination is not the dominant factor in the remaining disparities." It's entirely possible, and it's also unlikely that we can find conclusive evidence one way or another (in part because that might be true for one company but not another).

So what counts as sufficient evidence to act on? Are, "creative ways to improve the field" the best way forward, or are they a way to signal interest in change while avoiding self-reflection?

[I'm not accusing you of avoiding self-reflection; I'm pointing out that one of the easiest ways to stall something is to say, "shouldn't we gather more evidence before doing anything?" Sometimes, yes, we should gather more information, but not always, and I don't know of any way to resolve the question without the possibility of hurt feelings.]

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